Christmas special

[eve11]

I keep watching bits of it over again and crying!

Also AAAAA I hate Old Age Makeup so much! But at least they were smart enough to make the whole episode in low lighting for it. So it wasn't too too bad. And I think Mr. Smith did pretty well with it.

I couldn't get past the creepy-ness of the whole naked joke. But ah well. It was the end of the story that I liked better anyway. But I want to know when the Doctor started trusting the Papal Mainframe?

So it seems to be intimated here that Tasha Lam is really River Song? I don't think she was always River? But perhaps Ephemeral/Datacore River was downloaded into the Tasha/Dalek brain somehow and woken up? I am not sure. But the whole "fighting the psychopath inside you" line as well as her ease flying the TARDIS makes me think that it was somehow River. Or I suppose on rewatch she could just be another cool woman who can fight off being killed by Daleks. I don't think River would have called him a fatuous egotist. And there was no "sweetie" so, probably not.

The thought of Eleven living out his days beseiged is, as astrogirl2 put it, melancholy, isn't it? And to be without the TARDIS for 300 years... I wonder if he could still "hear" her and talk with her over the distance? It reminds me of the beginning of Orbis with the 8th Doctor having spent 600 years on the jellyfish planet after fighting Morbius. And I know the answers to the questions were quite pat, but they did wrap up more than I thought they would. And then the Time Lords give Eleven a whole new regeneration cycle just as he's about to die, with I guess enough residual to blow up some Daleks as well.

ETA: That whole bit when he get the regeneration energy is so wonderful. Even the dig at the Old School Fanboys... "We're breaking some serious science here boys!" LOL...

I like the bit about how every life saved is a victory. But wow, 300+ years in a siege and a stalemate, beating monsters and protecting both the town and the Time Lords... it's extremely sad but also quite fitting for Eleven.

The part about breath on a mirror was when I started losing it. Oh, Raggedy man. I don't know why they had him take the bow-tie off after talking to Amelia though; it feels like that should have been switched around. But I also like the way they did the change just like "POW! Capaldi!" Since he used up all the explodey to blow up the Daleks. All that talk about remembering and then he can't even remember how to Pilot the TARDIS... oh dear.

Right. Off to watch it again and probably keep crying.

Comments

[sahiya.livejournal.com]

I think Tasha Lam must have been River Song. After all, River ended up uploaded to a mainframe and that's exactly what the Papal Mainframe is. But I've only ever seen Eleven act like that with one other person, and there's no one else I know with an inner psychopath who can pilot the TARDIS. So . . .

[eve11]

I know; it was pretty heavy handed hints! Makes me wonder if Tasha was somehow infiltrated by River's consciousness or something? It's a bit of a mystery. Or perhaps an incarnation of River before she became little Mels and met up with her Parents.

[nonelvis]

Man, it's refreshing to read a post from someone who enjoyed the episode! I know I wasn't the only one who liked it, but it's sure starting to seem that way.

I'm not really buying the Tasha-is-River theory, at least not yet. I can see how people are getting there, but the two characters speak differently; Tasha was unfamiliar with Eleven's body (or at least claimed to be); I'm not sure River would spend hundreds of years in charge of a religious organization, particularly not the one that kidnapped and brainwashed her (even if that was a splinter group); and frankly, I can't think of a worse ending for her than being turned into a Dalek, regardless of whether she can temporarily or permanently overcome that transformation.

[eve11]

I agree with your post that all the information you need to follow the episode is there in the dialogue; it starts off kind of dropping you in in media res but if you pay attention the explanations are all there. There are some silly bits and questionable bits (kept thinking 'yeah but he's really naked!' on that whole scene with the bed-altar thing, yipes!), but overall I really enjoyed it. It was an ambitious story to tell; and it hung together pretty well. I like that there are cosmic consequences (restarting the Time War and the do-over death of the Time Lords) and much more simple consequences in just saving this one village who happens to be in the middle of everything.

I didn't think that she was River the whole time... though if she was, it seems like it must have been some kind of feint or something. This is the woman who spent her days in Stormcage for a murder she didn't commit, in order to help restore the balance of Time and all that. But yeah, the more I watch it the more I'm thinking she's just a different character who has echoes of the same personality.

[jjpor.livejournal.com]

It sounds as if you enjoyed all the things about it that I enjoyed too. I liked this special rather a lot, as an ending for Eleven certainly. I think a lot of the people I've seen who haven't enjoyed it are getting caught up in minutiae of plotting that aren't really important imho to what this story was and what it was trying to do. Which didn't stop me from becoming enmeshed in debating said minutiae with people, of course, because that's just the way I am. ;)

[eve11]

Yes, of course, I think debating is part of the whole experience :D

It was quite ambitious though, to have this Doctor really confront his end and what that would mean. To have him finally have to take the slow path. The way he seemed so tired and resigned when Clara told him to change the future: "I could have once, when there were Time Lords. Not anymore." It really was heartbreaking. And something that had truly not been done before either. Minus in the audios a little bit--Eight and the Orbis Jellyfish. But even then he was just stuck in one place, not facing down his own ending.

[elisi]

I don't know why they had him take the bow-tie off after talking to Amelia though; it feels like that should have been switched around.
I think she was what made him finally able to let go. Just like he helped River - he needed someone to help him across that final barrier of accepting that he was going to change. (He's been in that body a very, very, very long time after all.)

Also just happy that someone else liked it. It's not as bad as after EoT, but oh, people are just so grumpy. So thank you for this.

I've only written this so far, which can be seen as a coda, I suppose, but I shall be posting some meta as soon as I've got all my thoughts together. However I am pretty sure that Tasha Lem is not River - there are superficial similarities, but that's all. I shall elaborate later. <3

[eve11]

Oh I definitely liked it a lot. I always tend to ask questions or point out plot holes or the like, even when I really like episodes. This one is interesting to me in that there were several episodes of Eleven's era where I liked the minute parts, the little scenes here and there better than the episode as a whole (Angels Take Manhattan, for instance), but this one is exactly the opposite. I can see what they were aiming for past the little things that get me, and it's really such a different story they're telling. I think I will like it more the more I re-watch it.

[eve11]

And oh yes! I read that coda and loved it :D Ponds forever. Indeed. I will miss all of them, but Eleven most of all.

[elisi]

♥

I've been in denial about Eleven leaving since it was announced. Not sure how I'll cope...

[eve11]

So far I'm coping by rewatching the last 15 minutes of this episode over and over again. If that can be called coping...

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

I only picked up on the Tasha/River hints the second go around. I can see that it would be very much in Moffat's modus operandi that it would be River, but I'd like it if it wasn't all connected together too.

I liked the special very much. I was worried the same as you with so much old age makeup, but the low lighting helped. It was a neat way to have all the enemies there (why the Great Intelligence called it a minor skirmish, I dunno). I loved the connection to Amelia/Amy at the end. I expected the young man who wasn't Barnable the last bit of the battle to be Barnable's grandson or something.

Yours is only the second reaction I've seen.

I think it was neat how Clara called on the Time Lords to help (does this mean he gets 12/11 more regenerations?). I still think they could've retconned River's regeneration granting from Let's Kill Hitler to give him an unknown bit of a boost--then again, if she is this high nun priestess, then she may need the spare extra regens... Wait a minute, Tash CAN'T be River. River...a nun?! Pfft.

Also, breath on a mirror. *SOB*

[eve11]

He said "a whole new regeneration cycle" so I think that means another 12. So we're good for another 50 years! Give or take ;)

[clocketpatch]

Also AAAAA I hate Old Age Makeup so much! Ha! I saw them starting that and all I could think was, "Oh, eve11 is going to hate this. Oh no!"

But it was all in very dim lighting, and the bit with the brief sunrise was down very well (*sob* Handles! *sob*) though I did find myself wondering how exactly these people in Victorian dress with presumably Victorian tech were able to survive on this always-winter planet. Maybe they had a giant, hi-tech hydroponics farm or a protein factory or something buried under the snow. I'd hate to think of what the Doctor was eating for 300 years otherwise (Soylent Green? Dalek roast? *shudder*)

Right, so... maybe I'm best off not applying too much logic. I did enjoy it quite a bit though and there were several bits that got a bit in my eye.

Finally, I love Clara's family. They're awesome and I hope they come back more (also? Love that Clara has a family after all that set-up where she was alone and living with the Maitlands)

And then it was, as you say POW!Capaldi. And... um... I kind of burst out laughing at that, which maybe wasn't right, but it sure felt good after all of the tears.

[eve11]

Ha! I saw them starting that and all I could think was, "Oh, eve11 is going to hate this. Oh no!"

Yeah, as soon as the voiceover started about the years passing I was like, "damn, I'm going to have to deal with this." But unlike for example, Last of the Time Lords, the rest of the episode was good enough that I forgave it the old age makeup. Also they made him look like One a bit, which was fitting.

Logic, shmogic, who says the plants on this planet need sunlight in order to grow? Perhaps they evolved to use snow or something. Tasha said it was a farm of some kind. I do wonder how they didn't ever get better technology in 500 years or however long the Doctor was down there protecting them. Ah, I can't believe Moff put him in one place for so long. Him of "is this how time normally passes? all in the same order?" And the TARDIS too, he must have missed her fiercely for so long.

I liked Clara's family too... though goodness this show has an issue with mothers (or stepmothers). None of them seem nice except Clara's and she died. *sighs*

I didn't get enough time to really get a good handle on Capaldi; that scene after the change was really rushed there and seemed a teensy bit flat, but Jenna Coleman was brilliant, and we definitely got the eyes. I wonder if the new regen cycle means he has to start from scratch remembering things? IDK

[kerravonsen]

None of them seem nice except Clara's and she died. *sighs*
Exception! The mother in The Doctor, The Widow and the Wardrobe was awesome.

[eve11]

Ah yes, that is true :)

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

But the whole "fighting the psychopath inside you" line as well as her ease flying the TARDIS makes me think that it was somehow River.
It didn't occur to me that they would be the same person, although it was a bit weird for them to say "psychopath" in reference to two different people in such close succession. I did like her, though!

I didn't cry but the Amy flashback was really emotional, even though it was so short and I had been spoiled for it by Tumblr.

[eve11]

I was pretty well unspoiled except for the still pictures and the first 30 second trailer. I liked it a lot. I didn't know about the cameo at all and I'd say it made me bawl but I was already crying buckets before then :)

I suppose they aren't the same person, River and Tasha; there was just some similarity about the way she slapped him and shot those Daleks. I definitely liked her a lot. Even with the creepy bed-altar.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

The internet has been coming up with whole lists of evidence, including such items as "Lem" is "Mel" spelled backwards, so you may yet be right!

Hahaha the bed-altar was a bit creepy though.

[elisi]

Sorry, my issues. Shouldn't let them loose in other people's journals.

*slinks away apologetically*

[eve11]

Don't worry about it. I think no one here is married to anything one way or the other, and we are all nice and low-key :) Anything discussed here is likely more of a lark than a lead weight.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

I think I missed something...is everything OK?

[elisi]

Oh yes, just deleted some drive-by grumbling that I shall put in my own LJ!

[sallymn.livejournal.com]

I've just watched it and yes, I liked it. Oddly, the only thing I would have wanted to change was Amy - I would have left the adult Amy out, that brief glimpse of his 'first face' would have been more powerful for me on it's own...

But Matt was wonderful, and I miss him already...

[eve11]

Aw, I liked the part with Amy; it really tugged at me. And yeah, I will miss Matt. There is always fic. one of these days I will finish my stupid WIP-o-Doom. I have a tendency to write what I'm watching so I'm kind of glad Capaldi's seasons aren't starting until August. Maybe I can keep on writing Eleven without getting distracted by Twelve :)

[kerravonsen]

It never occurred to me that Tasha Lem could be River Song. The continuity isn't right. And the Moff doesn't tend to throw away his continuity.

[eve11]

The only time she could have fit in as a version of River Song would be in River's timeline between the Day of the Moon and Let's Kill Hitler. But the characterization wasn't right for her for that era. Or if she was post-Forest of the Dead River, rebooted somehow and given extra regenerations. But either would take some convoluted storytelling. not that Moff is against that mind you ;)

The more I think about it the more I think it's not River. Which is fine.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

Well, it is the high priestess/nun of the papal MAINFRAME.

I have more of an issue thinking River would be a nun--even a nun with a bed altar. :-)

And as much as I don't like giving LJ money anymore, I may have to bite the bullet because I miss my icons too much. :-)

[kerravonsen]

I have more of an issue thinking River would be a nun--even a nun with a bed altar. :-)

That part doesn't actually bother me, because I wouldn't be surprised - with all the strange conventions and culture of that era - that "nun" doesn't mean the same thing to them as it does to us.

[kerravonsen]

But the characterization wasn't right for her for that era.

Definitely.

The more I think about it the more I think it's not River. Which is fine.

Agreed. I took the remark about her "inner psychopath" more as a reference to (a) how well the Doctor knows her, and (b) she's been waging a war for three hundred years, as the head of a church which is dedicated to said war... that speaks of a controlled ruthlessness which could easily be described as "an inner psychopath which is under control".

[eve11]

Yeah. Though, it seems Eleven certainly has a type ;D

[kerravonsen]

(smirk)

[flowsoffire.livejournal.com]

I personally don't think Tasha is River, but the similarities are certainly jarring. (The flying the TARDIS did it for me. The rest can pass as "same type of women can make the Doctor squirm in half-aroused awkwardness".) That psychopath line was very cool, Tasha definitely seemed to have that in her… Powerful, badass women. I love them.

It reminds me of the beginning of Orbis with the 8th Doctor having spent 600 years on the jellyfish planet after fighting Morbius.
There is a precedent? ♥ Oh, thanks a lot for pointing that out. I kind of felt uncomfortable with the idea—like it was beautiful all right, but the Doctor would have gone bonkers—and knowing it happened to Eight makes me feel a lot better.

Since he used up all the explodey to blow up the Daleks.
Another good point! Lol, that was quite bothering me. We're not done with the "he sneezed and turned into Capaldi" jokes anytime soon.

*offers hugs and cookies*

[eve11]

Ah yes, in Orbis the Doctor has spent 600 years on one planet. The ending is way more apocalyptic and sad for that planet (and crazy in the way only audios can be crazy. Jellyfish aliens! Attacked by genderswapping clam aliens!). He has forgotten all about his companion Lucie and it takes him several episodes to warm up to her again.

[flowsoffire.livejournal.com]

That sounds great! Audios ftw :D

[radiolaires]

I keep watching bits of it over again and crying!
Same! Especially the regeneration bit and Clara's first reunion with the Doctor on Trenzalore. Amazing.

Also AAAAA I hate Old Age Makeup so much! Ooooh, I have the same problem. I just didn't think much of it before the big let's-kill-daleks-with-regeneration-energy bit where it was quite strikingly lit. So I guess, it was okay?

I couldn't get past the creepy-ness of the whole naked joke. What I mainly hated is that, as for Jack, it is okay to show a man's body but a woman's? Good gracious, it's a children's show and woman's bodies are too sexualised for that!

So it seems to be intimated here that Tasha Lam is really River Song? She definitely is not, I think. They are quite different and when you think of it River could never lead a religion. The similarities are there but I think it all comes down to the fact that Tasha is basically River's leader, religious model.

And to be without the TARDIS for 300 years...
I thought it was extremely long, especially for him. I really would have wanted to see more of his sadness over not seeing the world or his ship anymore...

All that talk about remembering and then he can't even remember how to Pilot the TARDIS... oh dear.
The whole TARDIS scene was utter perfection. It made me forget everything that did not quite worked during the episode. Moffat is a beast.

Really interesting review, that said! Thank you for sharing.

[eve11]

I really would have wanted to see more of his sadness over not seeing the world or his ship anymore...

Me too. I wrote something that deals with it only a little bit and it made me sad all over again for the finale.

[radiolaires]

Oh, was it posted here? I completely missed it!

[eve11]

Not yet; it is a fandom stocking fill and the reveals were delayed a few days due to power outages and network loss for the moderator. It should be up later tonight or tomorrow.

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

Yeah, not keen on the makeup - but the British do so well in other ways, I think we can forgive them this...the 'ancient' makeup was waaaaayyyy better though. *Pats heart*

He seemed to have no problem with 'the Church'. Kovarian's sect threw him off. Remember the Bishop from TotA. That seemed to be more what the Mainframe was about.

Methinks River was designed off of Tasha. And was given info from/about her by Kovarian. But as for how she learned the fly the TARDIS? Maybe we'll find out!

YUS. Loved the regen energy and the slight dig, lol!! Course, the Moff can do that because HE'S an Old School Fanboy!

Sooo Eleven. And I am heartbroken and yet still excited!! Think it's the denial stage that refuses to go away. Not that I'm complaining...

That speech...it was definitely an ELEVEN speech. And...and I think he took the tie off so Capaldi's Doctor wouldn't hate it. Cause they always do, you know...

*CRIES*

*CLINGS*

[eve11]

*clings back*

Heartbroken and excited about covers it. Kidneys!