Nitpicking Doctor Who 7x09

[eve11]

- How old is Palmer supposed to be? If it's WWII they are talking about, and it's also November 1974... that is nearly 30 years passing time. Which would make him in his 50s, while Emma is way younger than that. So, if not WWII, which war? Korean conflict? that would be early 50's. Vietnam? I thought that was just the US. And, in the war as a POW... Sounds like VietNam if it was the US. I do math; not history. Help?

- November, 1974, in a creepy house on the moors (north? moors are in the North, right?). It looks remarkably like Spring when they are outside in the end.

- Still don't know why the opposite of "bliss" is ... "Carlisle"?

Comments

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

Haven't seen the show yet, but moors are found all over, from the south west of England all the way up through Scotland, and Carlisle is a town on the Scottish-English border and would not be considered #1 on the list of Places One MUST Visit.

[eve11]

Aha, okay! Thanks :)

[lostrack621.livejournal.com]

Finally! A reason that makes sense for the Carlisle line!


(sometimes being American has it's major drawbacks -- like ginger! and jumpers! and references in television and film that make zero sense unless you are familiar with the UK ;))

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

He might be in his 50's. She could be in her 30's...that's not really unheard of - less so nowadays, but not unheard of.

Hmmm...early November - a late fall thing?

Still confused on the bliss is Carlisle thing myself.

[wolfy-writing.livejournal.com]

The UK was involved in the Korean War, but not the Vietnam war. (Australia and New Zealand both contributed soldiers to the Vietnam War.) There were prisoners of war taken in both wars. Conditions were pretty brutal for prisoners of war captured by Chinese forces. The Korean War ran from 1950-1953.

[giallarhorn.livejournal.com]

I had assumed that it was WWII- Eleven makes mention of railroads in Europe and U-boat sabotage in the North sea, so likely WWII, just given the likelihood?

I'm fairly certain that the moors are a pretty widespread geographical phenomenon, but I could be wrong.

I think it was actually Carlyle- in which case, it'd likely refer to Thomas Carlyle, who was a Victorian era philosopher who had a treatise roughly on how ignorance was an evil of the individual, opposed to bliss.

[franzi1981.livejournal.com]

No - I turned the subtitles on for that line. It said "Carlisle" and does refer to that town on the Scottish border that is, apparently, pretty much the opposite of bliss ;)

[lordshiva.livejournal.com]

I just hand-waved the age thing cuz I didn't want to dwell on it with logic, but I kind of thought it was more homage to 1970's Doctor/companion relationship.

[eve11]

I think you are probably right. :) Especially, "It's 1974; you're his assistant" ;)

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

That was my favorite part of the whole episode. Okay, that, and the fact that the Doctor used a crystal from Metebelis 3.

[thisbluespirit]

His age really bothered me all the way through - I'm going to have to watch it again (and probably again, I loved it and these two characters especially) to check, but it sounded like WWII specifically, vaguely Bletchley Park type stuff. Which, I suppose, would also allow for him being a brilliant Oxbridge undergrad who was put straight into that kind of work or military intelligence or something, so it just about fits. (I looked up the actors' ages - Dougray Scott is about 48, Jessica Raine around 31.) I'm not quite clear, though - as I said, I'll have to watch it again. (ETA: I do wonder if the date was brought forward at some point; maybe it was originally meant to be set in the mid 60s and they wanted to get the UNIT-era joke in for some reason??)

Moors are indeed found in various places over Britain - you could on the Yorkshire Moors, or Dartmoor, Exmoor or Bodmin in the South West (Devon and Cornwall), or in Scotland, and there are some others.

:lol: at it looking like Spring - it's just another nod to the 1970s - there are freak weather conditions out on the moor! (Or location filming, always so inconvenient.)

If you're interested, the film Enigma is really good background to some of this, and it's a lovely film (I think you'd like it - unless all the maths/code-breaking stuff in it is wrong and therefore annoying! I wouldn't know, I know the history, not the maths!) - and Dougray Scott is the lead character, who has a breakdown over the work he's doing. (A deliberate bit of casting going on there in Hide, I think. Heh.) :-)

Found probably the most relevant clip

[eve11]

Thanks for the info! I'll check it out.

So yeah, I guess he would be in his late 40s at the least. Maybe she's supposed to look young and is more like 34 or so. Fifteen years between is at least respectable I suppose.

[skalja.livejournal.com]

The Doctor identifies Palmer as a Baker Street Irregular, which was a nickname for an agent of the Special Operations Executive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Executive). So, espionage/sabotage/reconnaissance stuff on the front lines or beyond them, helping local resistance against the German occupation. The youngest individual agents I could find listed on wikipedia would've been 'roundabouts 51-52 in 1974, and Scott's 47, so the casting's quite reasonable. Funny that his characters have ended up on both sides of the front lines, though! I'll have to check Enigma out, it sounds fascinating.

Like other commenters, I assumed the age gap was an homage, though it would've been nice to see some middle-aged romance...

[thisbluespirit]

Oh, thanks. I was going to watch it again on the Friday repeat and see if I could catch what he actually said, because all I got was an impression that it was definitely WWII and something a bit unconventional/more intelligence work than active, but no more. (Well, I'm still going to watch it again, but thanks!)

Enigma is a great little film; I really love it.

[skalja.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm not an expert, but from what I understand they were pretty, uh, active.

[infinitemonkeys.livejournal.com]

I'd agree with the above, though Dougray Scott is still very young for the role if that's the case. I wondered about the Korean war, Malayan Emergency or some other colonial disaster but it doesn't fit so well, so I think handwaviness is the way to go.

My favourite bit of Enigma is the blink-n-miss-it cameo by Mick Jagger. He helped finance the film, I think.

As for Carlisle, I doubt it's the philosopher. In the first episode the Doctor was sheltering in a monastery in Cumbria, and Carlisle is the biggest town in Cumbria, so it could be either a thing or a coincidence. If it's a coincidence it's a really random place to chuck in. If there are references in future episodes to the Lake District or the nuclear plant at Sellafield, then it's probably going to be a thing. (I always like it when it turns out to be a thing, like the Doctor's coat in S5, and nuclear plant horror stories are very 1970s Who.)

On a sidenote, can you hear that Jenna-Louise Coleman is northern? I always wonder whether people not in Britain can tell. She's not got much of an accent but you can tell by the vowel sounds.

[eve11]

So, something's going down on the Scotland/England border then! We've got cumbria, Carlisle, and if there's something about nuclear plants we will know it is a thing

American me is wondering if Carlisle is sort of like the Youngstown (OH) of the UK?

I definitely picked up a northern sounding accent, yes. And in the little girl who played young Clara on the swingset too. Understated. ha, I asked elisi about it and she didn't hear it until it was pointed out, but she also said she's from Yorkshire/Leeds area and is used to much broader on a daily basis. But yes, I can pick it out, especially her line about "I'm going to buy this house, with my money."

[franzi1981.livejournal.com]

Also a mention of the Lake District in Rings of Akhaten!

[franzi1981.livejournal.com]

We already had a reference to the Lake District in Rings of Akhaten! :)

[jjpor.livejournal.com]

I think the war in question, what with mentions of U-boats and resistance activities in Europe etc, was definitely meant to be WWII - but you're right, even if he was very, very young to be a Major or whatever rank they said (not an impossibility in wartime) then he was still going to be 50 or so - at the very youngest. I'm not sure exactly how old Dougray Scott is, but he's probably in that ballpark. Whereas, Emma seemed much, much younger. Again not sure of the actress's real age, but she struck me as twentysomething. So...yeah...

Although, somebody on the doctorwho comm was saying that originally the character of Alec was supposed to be Bernard Quatermass - yes, that Bernard Quatermass! - but they couldn't get the rights. And in that case the story would have been set in the 40s or 50s, which would certainly make for a smaller age difference between the two characters. I have absolutely no idea how reliable this information is, however. Still, I liked the characters and the actors, and the episode itself generally, although that was a bit of a niggle, to be sure.

I've been to Carlisle in rl. Twice. It has a very nice castle that has also been an army headquarters in more recent times and therefore features a small but interesting military museum as well. As for the town itself, I never thought of it as a particularly unpleasant locale, although maybe I have low standards. Still, it was a good line. Unless you're from Carlisle, I suppose.

[eve11]

yes, that Bernard Quatermass!

LOL, see, this doesn't really help me either! I know it's some kind of TV show that pre-dated Doctor Who? And the scientist guy from Planet of the Dead mentioned it.

So yeah, I'm thinking Carlisle is like the Youngstown of the UK. Probably Carlisle is nicer though. (Or maybe it's like Delaware, like the famous line from Wayne's World: "Hi Mom! I'm in . . . Delaware.")

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

I assumed the ignorance is Carlisle was just supposed to be either very silly or an allusion to something that happened offscreen? I am enjoying seeing all the different takes on what it could mean.