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I liked this episode more than I thought I would. Mainly because River was back to being Fucking Awesome in this story. And because of the notion of endings being relative, when Time is involved. So a few paragraphs on that first, because that's what's spilling from my head right now. I like the representation of the Doctor's life as normal to time, by which I mean the mathematical definition: orthogonal, a co-set, infinite in a completely different direction.

The Doctor's life relative to others is an infinite library of books all crammed aleph-null-like into a single instant, and all of those books are open, and as much as he can manage, all of them are missing the last page. Every page in a book is numbered, but if you have hit the last page, you know what number it is. You can skip around the pages as much as you like, but you know the number and you're always counting down. That is what happens when everything including endings occurs out of order. That's River's book, and now it's the Ponds' book as well. Moffat has liked lives as books for a long time; just look back to the Girl in the Fireplace: "There is a vessel in your world where the days of my life are pressed together like the chapters of a book so that he may step from one to the other without increase of age, while I, weary traveller, must always take the slower path."

Given that the Doctor knows the end, I imagine it would take a while, as Amelia guessed in her afterward, to brave the strength to find another page in the middle. "I think, once we're gone, you might not be coming back here for a while," she said. She did NOT say, "I'm sorry we never saw you again." So I think the Doctor was being overdramatic when he said the fixed point meant he could never see the Ponds again. Amelia called him on it in her Afterward, and but for the ending the Ponds' lives are still open books. Plus, as Moffat suggested multiple times within this episode, this whole strange family is very good at lying. Also, fair's fair: let Amy and Rory let the Doctor contemplate their being dead this time, instead of Lake Silencio and the other way round.

For the Doctor, knowing the ending is bounding the infinite; a book with an end is finite and has to be closed--maybe not now--but some time. Closure; the mathematical definition is apt here, is it not? (And yes, that is why I named that story last week as I did). The limit points of every infinite sequence in the set, exists also in the set. What is left in this bounded space but smaller and smaller fractal steps?

Parceling out pages, making them last as long as you can. When Amy says "it may be a while" she means a while for the Doctor, not necessarily for her and Rory. Of course, she's not going to write that one way or the other, now is she?

A few other things:

Overall, I think the themes of this story worked better than the execution of them. "Yowza" as well as silly lines like "Husband, Run" and "Husband, shut up!" make up for the things that I as a biased viewer, tend to have difficulty with (EMO scenes! OLD AGE MAKEUP OMG I HATE IT). Melody Malone, a book that is being written and read and don't read ahead, the Weeping Angels going a bit soft and slow in light of their little Industrial Revolution (and why the heck not I guess?), but still back to being creepy.

- How is it that I have known forever that the title of this ep was "The Angels Take Manhattan" and yet I never ever once considered that the Statue of Liberty would be a Weeping Angel? I would think that in the city that never sleeps, someone's always got an eye on the Statue of Liberty. When ever would she be able to move?

- Also, yay for Mike McShane so that we don't have to have non-Americans trying to do New York accents. I loved him on Whose Line back in the day. He was also the therapist who died at the beginning of Office Space. He's a great character actor and did sinister gangster really well. I think River was a little blase' about her dad getting thrown into a basement with creepy cherubs though.

- I HATE OLD AGE MAKEUP. Arg. Hate it.

"You think you're just gonna come back?"
"When don't I?" LOL

- Stop blinking, Rory! These angels, they don't move so fast as the ones in the house with Sally Sparrow. People are 'not looking' at angels all the freaking time in this story, and the angels aren't getting to them and zapping them back in time.

- WHY DO YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT GRAVESTONES! Also I don't believe Rory would be that thick that he would think it was the grave of somebody with the same name as him. Really. That last scene...poor Doctor, but River is absolutely right that Amy's best chance of getting to Rory is to get zapped back in time then and there.

- I want them to say somewhere, that they landed forty years late in the graveyard, thus when Amy and Rory get zapped back in time, they do not have to live out their lives in the past, but just get zapped back to their contemporary 2012. In fact I think they were hinting at that in the promo pics, with the whole "Detroit Lions win the Superbowl" thing. But hey, as I said, the Ponds' life is still an open, if finite (and of course it is, it ALWAYS was, but not for the Doctor) book; If River can send Amy a book for publishing, she can also send Amy a Vortex manipulator and take Amy and Rory back to their house in Leadworth.

So, River and the Doctor having fights and shenanigans and timey-wimey married adventures, hooray! And an ending that is nothing more than a last page on a book that hasn't really been read yet. I like this. Yes. I didn't cry, but I didn't imagine I would. Looking forward to the Amazing Lives of Ponds, and no matter what Moffat or the Doctor may say, to the next page on which their paths cross.

Date: 2012-09-30 05:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladymercury-10.livejournal.com
Mainly because River was back to being Fucking Awesome in this story.
YES. I mean, I think most of what I disliked about her was due to her character development being in reverse order, but it was nice to see her back in top form before the end.

Every page in a book is numbered, but if you have hit the last page, you know what number it is.
Well, and as soon as you find that page, the jig is up, because that's the definition of a finite set--that can have a "last" element.

this whole strange family is very good at lying
Well, and so is the "family" of the DW cast and crew. Arthur and Karen keep saying they're never coming back, but the 50-year special is next year, and it would be so very easy to sneak them in for ten seconds. Or to have a bit more footage we don't know about to paste in wherever they like between now and then.

Closure; the mathematical definition is apt here
Oh, is this how closed intervals work? That makes sense with the proofs we did in analysis with indexed unions and intersections, actually. Neat!

yet I never ever once considered that the Statue of Liberty would be a Weeping Angel?
You must be very good at avoiding spoilers. I was spoiled for that one multiple ways. It was even in one of the trailers.

River was a little blase
I thought that about all her scenes with Rory. I wonder if it was because she had to play the hardboiled detective?

Who was wearing age makeup? Alex Kingston? I thought she looked pretty good for an older River.

Stop blinking, Rory! These angels, they don't move so fast
No one seemed to be looking at the Statue of Weeping Angel for a good bit of the time on the roof, and that worked out fine, weirdly. And yeah, Rory was just not paying attention to anything. He gets dumped outside a hotel with magic doors and an ANGEL STATUE, and the hotel is super creepy and has a room with his name on it, and NONE OF THIS bothers him up until the point where it is pointed out to him that he is seeing his own death. Good job, Rory, good job. I think whatever tiny inkling of self-preservation instinct he did have has been sort of wiped out by the whole "When don't I?" effect. :P

Also I don't believe Rory would be that thick that he would think it was the grave of somebody with the same name as him. Really.
Well, he only had about 30 seconds to process it before he got zapped, so.

In fact I think they were hinting at that in the promo pics, with the whole "Detroit Lions win the Superbowl" thing.
What Detroit Lions thing? I expect they're stuck in New York one way or another, and I am inclined to believe it's earlier rather than later, but I would be perfectly happy to be convinced that they were stuck in present NYC and that Brian occasionally flew over and took the train in to see them. :)

An ending that is a last page on a book that hasn't really been read yet.
I really like the sense that at the same time things are over, and yet they can go on forever. Just like when you read a book and you can always come back to it or imagine what happened before or what might come next. :)

Date: 2012-09-30 06:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eve11.livejournal.com
Well, to be fair, I was spoiled for the Statue of Liberty like, either Friday night or Saturday morning, when BBCAmerica put up a promo pic on my fb page and I was like, "Shit!" and "Holy heck, why didn't I think of that???". So I was unspoiled for that image almost all the way up to the episode.

Who was wearing age makeup? No, not Alex Kingston. Arthur Darvill. Rory in the bed was still him? Ah, those kind of emotional scenes... I tend to watch them through my fingers because they make me uncomfortable, and especially scenes with age makeup too because I hate it.

What Detroit Lions thing? In some of the promo pics for the series, you could see the paper Amy was reading, and it said "Detroit Lions win Superbowl", and it seemed like then, that was a hint at the future?

There was one point where they mentioned something about 2012, so I guess that picnic was in 2012. Which means the graves were in 2012? Damn. That still does not preclude some timey-wimey-ness, I think. I just don't like to think of the rest of the Ponds' families never seeing them again. And I don't see why they would be stuck in New York... they could always just go back to England. Maybe in regards to the Doctor, the Ponds have some residual NYC weirdness to them wherever they go, and so the TARDIS won't be able to home in on them.

Anyway, there is a lot of wiggle room here, still. Rose and the Doctor were separated "Forever" too in Doomsday. And she came back.

Date: 2012-09-30 06:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladymercury-10.livejournal.com
I have got to start sleeping more, my magic OCD-sourced proofreading skills are disappearing. I keep leaving words out of sentences. >_<

No, not Alex Kingston. Arthur Darvill.
Oh, duh. *facepalm* Yeah, that was an awkward scene on all accounts. Regular Arthur Darvill did a good job, though. Rory looked really shaken once he finally managed to grasp what was happening.

you could see the paper Amy was reading, and it said "Detroit Lions win Superbowl", and it seemed like then, that was a hint at the future?
I do not know enough about sports to grasp the significance of this. Are the Lions really bad?

There was one point where they mentioned something about 2012, so I guess that picnic was in 2012.
Wait, but the Ponds would have been like 22 in 2012, so they traveled back in time ten years just to have a picnic? I don't like to think about their families never seeing them again, either. Especially after the exchange Brian and the Doctor had last episode. I didn't entirely understand how the whole Angel New York factory farm human time energy thing worked, so I don't know if they zap you if you try to leave in time (or certain ways in time?), or also if you leave in space, or if they only care about certain people? Because Ten and Martha were def in New York at one point and they got out fine, and even if the Angels only go for the time travelers or whatever, TEN AND MARTHA, HELLO ANGELS, YOU LIKED THEM WELL ENOUGH IN BLINK.

Did Moffat dig his own plot hole? My brain hurts now.

Rose and the Doctor were separated "Forever" too
Oh, let's don't even talk about Rose coming back. That went on forever and ever and ever until I was really annoyed with the show AND Rose AND the Doctor AND the hardcore shippers all. And I liked Rose, and I didn't even see full seasons back then and it still drove me crazy. I'd much rather not see the Ponds again than get sick of them.

Date: 2012-09-30 07:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eve11.livejournal.com
The Lions are getting better, but they also have never won a Superbowl ever. And they didn't win in 2012. The New York Football Giants did. :D

I think as far as time goes, Amy says it's been ten years for the Ponds, but not for the Doctor or for the Earth. So the Ponds have aged ten years but perhaps the earth hasn't aged quite that much. If it's like 2060 though, in that graveyard, and the survivor Angel zaps Amy and Rory back to about 2020, that would be about right for them?

PS Did you notice all the giant eyeballs in the TV screens in Times Square? SOMEBODY knows that Angels still need looking at...

Date: 2012-09-30 07:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladymercury-10.livejournal.com
How long is he keeping them at a go that they're losing meaningful chunks out of their age that way? Although I guess even a couple weeks or months at a time would add up if you did it long enough. I can't deal with all this timey-wimey math. Regular arithmetic is already my worst kind of math, and then they want me to add and subtract while standing on a nonlinear ball of wibbly-wobbly stuff and I just can't handle it. :P

No, I didn't see the eyeballs. I did see on Tumblr that someone had found a screencap from "The Eleventh Hour" that had an Angel-y-looking statue in it, though.

Date: 2012-09-30 07:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eve11.livejournal.com
lol, well he did steal them for seven weeks in the span of an afternoon. But also the orderly in Power of Three notes that they go away for months at a stretch too. I imagine contemporary Pond Time is like 2018 or something?

Date: 2012-09-30 07:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladymercury-10.livejournal.com
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. It just hurts my brain every time I try to write something and I have to try to figure out "If it has been this many years since episode x, in which Rory was 31, which was ten months after x, which was three years after x, when Amy was 21...what was the question again?"

Date: 2012-09-30 07:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] livii.livejournal.com
I cannot follow any of the timing in this show, but I didn't realize it was 2012, ha! So that adds to the list of things wrong with that: no one except maybe some papers in the winning city runs a header about the SB like that ; a NYC paper in particular wouldn't for the Lions ; it's not nearly the right time of year! It's winter in NYC when the game is on!

For some reason I've been fixing on that headline, probably because it's football day and the Lions are getting beat bad, haha.

...2012 really? The Ponds are in their 30s now! Are they seriously only meant to be physically 30 but not temporally 30?

Date: 2012-09-30 08:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eve11.livejournal.com
I thought they mentioned it was 2012 at some point. But maybe I imagined that?

Here is the post (http://doctoreleven.livejournal.com/698856.html) where you can find the picture of the NY record saying Detroit wins the SuperBowl. :D

Date: 2012-09-30 08:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] livii.livejournal.com
No, Billy says he heard it. I probably ignored it because it didn't make any sense...!

I really am lol-ing forever. It's like they were purposely going "hey, we're British! What do we know about America!" Except I wonder just how large the DW/ nfl football fan overlap is...(unless it is A CLUE! Haha)

Date: 2012-09-30 09:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eve11.livejournal.com
Aha, it's when the Doctor and Amy bounce off of 1938 and land in the graveyard: Amy says they have a time machine, they can just go back and get Rory and the Doctor says: "Well, tried that, if you'd noticed and we are back where we started, in 2012."

Gah. That makes no sense!

Date: 2012-09-30 06:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] quean-of-swords.livejournal.com
The only thing I want to add that as a New Yorker, I am now going to have to deal with the images of the Cherubs on the Bethesda fountain in Central Park COMING ALIVE AND SENDING ME BACK IN TIME. Gee, thanks, Moffat. Lol.

Date: 2012-09-30 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eve11.livejournal.com
Ha just make sure someone's always looking at Lady Liberty, LOL

Date: 2012-09-30 07:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] quean-of-swords.livejournal.com
Lol! Yeah, my friends and I were wondering how the Statue of Liberty could move at all, given the 'city that never sleeps' thing. I mean, somebody's probably always looking... But whatever. It was still pretty satisfyingly creepy.

Date: 2012-09-30 07:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eve11.livejournal.com
It was a great visual.

Date: 2012-10-01 02:45 am (UTC)
ext_3557: annerb icon with scenes of all team variations, my OTP (DW My Boys)
From: [identity profile] aurora-novarum.livejournal.com
Ha ha. Did you see that little insider thing of how Moffat was insistent that the cherubs be in the story (I guess because they were more eye-level), and missed the BIG HONKING ANGEL on the top of that fountain.

Date: 2012-10-01 03:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] quean-of-swords.livejournal.com
Yeah, I kept expecting it to move. I'm kind of relieved that it didn't, tbo.

Date: 2012-09-30 06:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenlev.livejournal.com
I'm struggling with the Ponds being stuck in the past. Maybe because I would SO not want to be stuck there myself. I want them to have a life in their own present. Which is precisely why I'd be a bad candidate for being a Companion myself. ;) Er...have thinky thoughts about what allows someone to survive being a Companion which I will get around to posting tomorrow...

Anyway, Yes, they do have a tendency for lying about fixed points in time etc. I can't help but hope that River does her River thing and brings them forward.

As for the Angels...Holy bat dren, they scare the frell out of me as per always. ;)

PS. I think the Ponds are and will be my favorite Companions. I just adore them, so am feeling a bit flaily and incoherent.
Edited Date: 2012-09-30 06:58 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-09-30 07:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eve11.livejournal.com
Yeah, it's the stuck in the past thing, that is getting to me too. I just don't buy it. If River can keep up with her parents, she can vortex manipulator them out of the past, and make sure that when their times come, they get interred in 2012 New York.

A bit of a stretch. But not outside the realm of possibility. Amy and Rory may have spent a few years in 1930's New York, but I'd think they would want to get the hell out of Dodge after a while.

Date: 2012-09-30 07:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jenlev.livejournal.com
Word and then some. I'm hoping at some point they'll show just exactly that happening. Because we all know that River Song is one hell of a determined being. So she would not stop at doing what needs to be done in order to bring them forward in time. Perhaps even quite a bit farther forward than one might expect. ;)

Date: 2012-09-30 07:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com


Such lovely thoughts. Still slightly hurt and agitated, but...good thoughts here.

Date: 2012-09-30 07:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eve11.livejournal.com
Aw. I think it's a good way to write the Ponds out for at least a while, because whether or not the ending is THE ending for the Doctor, it's still going to *hurt* like it, you know? And so we step away from the Ponds with something more final than "I can pick them up again for the gang" and less final (I think) than "I'll never see them again." Whether or not we see them again in the show (or whether we cam place whether said seeing again is pre- or post- 7x05), I just don't think that the Doctor's and the Ponds' paths will never cross again.

I am also stupidly hopeful though.

Date: 2012-09-30 08:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com

Thee and me. I miss my Ponds already...*sobs*

Date: 2012-10-01 04:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eve11.livejournal.com
LOL I know!

Aw, there is always fanfic for the Ponds. I really liked their arc. Full circle. I hope the next companion is just as cool.

Date: 2012-10-01 02:43 am (UTC)
ext_3557: annerb icon with scenes of all team variations, my OTP (DW My Boys)
From: [identity profile] aurora-novarum.livejournal.com
Whose Line THAT's where I knew him from.

Oooh, I like your explanation. I'm enjoying reading everyone's reactions but I haven't sorted out mine yet.

I both love the weeping angels and they freak me out so much. I was loving Amy and Rory's touching scene but a bit of me kept thinking now you're looking at each other and not Lady Liberty. She's going to timey wimey torch you huddled non-masses! I'll try and get myself to watch it again now that I'm not completely scared.

I'm not sure River realized at first what happened to Rory, nor that he had already been back once...maybe anyway.

I am glad they turned the Angels back into the live to death explanation. As much as I enjoyed the Byzantium eps, I was a bit annoyed they seemed to just kill people to "steal their voices" or whatever.

Again, thank you so much for your cool time theory explanations.

I just worry about Brian. Hopefully you're right, River fixed it.

Date: 2012-10-01 04:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eve11.livejournal.com
You're very welcome :)

Ha, it took me to the second view to see the giant honking angel on the top of that fountain too.


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