7xIt'sTheFinaleUntilNovember
May. 19th, 2013 01:33 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
eve11I was completely unspoiled for this, and I've watched it twice now and I still really like it a lot. Less for the plot but more for the characterization & setting. The tomb, the Dead TARDIS expanding on a grand scale... oh, jeez, so sad, and the cloister bell going in the console room. But sadder even was the simple scene between him and Clara after she wakes up, her pouring tea and him having to own up to endings and still, still trying to run away. I really liked Clara a lot in this one.
I liked how, like in Caves of Androzani, the choice the Doctor had to make was to save his friends who had been good to him. How Clara remembered the reset TARDIS timeline. How truly evil and menacing Simeon and the Whisper Men were. I liked River but was somewhat confused by her... how long has she been dead? Was she already dead & a ghost in the Angels two-parter? Or is it just the version of her who was summoned to the conference call who was dead. I'm guessing the latter.
I liked the subtle call-back to "I don't know where I am" back from the Bells of St. John. I liked the idea that it's not the souffle, it's the recipe. Oh and harkening back to the Asylum of the Daleks, how at the beginning there was a giant Dalek monument and in this episode, a giant TARDIS.
I am intrigued by John Hurt's character at the end. He's the Doctor's secret? People seem to think that it has to do with the Time War... maybe the Doctor's secret is that he's the Eleventh "Doctor" but the Twelfth incarnation of this person, the one who broke the promise. How can he be even more terrible than what we know he did in the Time War? He had a secret, his true name... I just wonder if John Hurt's character is someone who showed up BEFORE the first Doctor. But what secret about the Time War could be so devastating that the entire universe couldn't bear knowing it?
Do you suppose we will find out in the 50th anniversary special? Or will it still end a mystery?\
ETA: I do like all of the subtleties in this story. The repetition of earlier themes like "I don't know where I am" from the Bells of st. John, the talk of graves and ghosts from Hide. The poor TARDIS, keeping the crack in her window from landing at Trenzalore, even as she decays like a red giant.
It is making me want to write more TARDIS stories. I just... The TARDIS and the Doctor: it breaks my heart to see the end of them.
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Date: 2013-05-19 05:42 am (UTC)This is the first River we've seen Post-Library. The only time that she's actually been dead. All other appearances have been way before the Library, although given what she said about the Doctor hating endings, I suspect that the River in Angels Take Manhattan might've been closer to the end of things (and that she might have gone to Dorillium before the beginning of "The Snowmen" aka "the Dark Times").
John Hurt has been announced as starring in the 50th alongside David Tennant and Matt, so I am assuming we'll learn more about who/what he is then. Also, it was hard to see what he was wearing, but set photos from the 50th shoots had him in something that looked like a mashup between 8 and 9's clothing. It doesn't make sense that he'd be the 12th Doctor given that 9 had already survived the Time War. Also, given that Clara was showing William Hartnell's Doctor the TARDIS, I can't imagine Hurt will be Doctor Zero. :)
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Date: 2013-05-19 05:54 am (UTC)I didn't know John Hurt had been announced as starring in the anniversary special. But I meant, not that John Hurt was the twelfth doctor, that Matt Smith is really the twelfth, eg, there was one between McGann and Eccleston that we didn't know about, so Eccleston was really 10, Tennant was really 11, and Smith was really 12.
Hartnell's Doctor left Gallifrey and we don't know why. I think it is possible that there could have been a regeneration before Hartnell. Or perhaps that the Doctor is really a cuckoo in the nest of Time Lord society, eg, he was already in hiding. Eg, maybe a Chameleon arch can turn some other more powerful species into a Time Lord, if it can turn Time Lords into humans. I realize these are likely not to be true. I just feel like, the Time War is in the past yeah, but what secret will the Doctor not discuss about it? What's worse than destroying all of Gallifrey and the Daleks in order to end the War? But that... that's not a secret that he won't discuss. He's discussed that with lots of people.
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Date: 2013-05-19 06:35 am (UTC)When he said he made a backup, yeah, that was the reference to saving her in the sonic and putting her into the fixed Data Core in the Library with CAL and the rest of her team. For reasons we don't know yet (if ever), she has the ability to project her virtual body outside the data core and interact with people. Vastra had no problem reaching her to the conference call and must've known that there was more to the situation. My own theory is that "The Snowmen" takes place post Towers of Dorillium in Eleven's timeline so River is theoretically gone, although as a time traveller, she could still show up again.
The Doctor *is* a jerk, but as River said more than once, he doesn't like endings, and he admitted he was afraid it would hurt too much so it's understandable.
Hurt was announced in the same press release as David Tennant, Billie Piper and Joanna Page all being in the anniversary special at the end of March. Probably because three out of four of them (all but Piper) were seen on location and so they (BBC) wanted to beat the tabloids or fans to the scoop.
Matt's still the Eleventh Doctor, but apparently he's the Twelfth Incarnation of the person who calls himself "The Doctor" (meaning John Smith -- for the lack of a better name -- has had twelve incarnations, but only eleven of them called themselves "The Doctor"). So in essence, yes, if we're counting just incarnations/regenerations rather than Doctors, Matt is now #12. Assuming there weren't MORE regenerations prior to the Hartnell one or in between McGann and Eccleston.
I don't think the Doctor is a cuckoo -- if only because he and the Master have discussed growing up together on Gallifrey, going to the Academy together etc. And in Classic Who, there were others who said similar things. Of course, in Classic Who, there was a sense that not all Gallifreyans were Time Lords -- Leela's husband wasn't a Time Lord, but he was from Gallifrey, and iirc, there were other non-Time Lords living outside the main cities. Also, there were plans to send Ace (the 7th Doctor's companion) to the Time Lord Academy in the never filmed Season 27. (Sorry if I'm repeating info you already know - I never know who is a Classic Who fan and who isn't! I don't mean to sound condescending!) So in theory, non-Gallifreyans could also be Time Lords -- it was a position/title rather than a genetic/racial thing. There were also some plans to possibly make the Doctor even older and more advanced than most Timelords, on a par with Omega and Rassilon -- but a lot of New Who contradicts all of this. So I'm assuming current canon (which is always mutable!) is that Time Lord/Gallifreyan is interchangeable *and* the Doctor is born and bred as one.
I suspect we'll find out what this newly discovered incarnations dirty little secrets are in November. I don't think it'll just be the Time War since, as you've already said, Nine and Ten had no problem discussing things.
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Date: 2013-05-19 06:50 am (UTC)I am pretty familiar with the Classic eras, so I do know about the Doctor's past and the difference eg between Time Lords and Gallifreyans. I'm just curious as to where this new incarnation fits... at the beginning, during/after the Time War, or at the end are still all possibilities! For example, Simeon mentions the Valeyard as someone who "will join the ranks" of the Doctor's bloodshed. The Valeyard? He was the evil 13th incarnation of the Doctor, was he not? (And wasn't he killed in The Ultimate Foe? I watched that one a few weeks ago but ... I couldn't tell you one whit of anything that made sense in it. I just couldn't follow it, and then I got bored so I was half-watching, half doing internet stuff. Which is a shame because I do really like Six. I even liked Timelash.
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Date: 2013-05-19 07:03 am (UTC)Hurt's done a few interviews about the show too -- he's one of my long time fave actors, so I'm pretty excited about his inclusion in the 50th.
I think where Hurt fits in to the timeline is going to be something for us to debate for the next 6 months. We can point out where he doesn't fit (basically any/all on-screen regenerations), but other than that, yep -- it's all a mystery. So many possibilities!
The Valeyard is an offshoot that the Time Lords created out of the Doctor's darker parts (or something like that) after his 12th incarnation -- at least that's what I remember. I know he was killed or banished somewhere towards the end of Trial of A Time Lord. I love Colin Baker as a human being, but find most of his stories really painful to watch. I haven't seen most of them in about 20 years, and I don't miss them. I honestly applaud you for liking Timelash -- I've only seen it once and found it unwatchable. The only two Six stories I really like are The Two Doctors and Vengeance on Varos (although the main reason for *that* one is just to see Jason Connery writhing half-naked against a wall for a lot of it. ;))
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Date: 2013-05-19 08:02 am (UTC)this is an interesting idea! and would mean we got to see more gallifrey, which i am always in favour of. but if he hasn't chosen the name 'the doctor' yet... maybe you could say he didn't break a promise to anyone.
also... as much as i would love 'more time war stuff!' in theory... i also like the endless fanwanking about it (i have become one of those fans! dont' tell me too much about the doctor!) so i am kind of hoping... that he is the valeyard, not only because that is what instnatly made sense to me. but because i like the idea that it was eight who did the time war and nobody thought he was up to it because he looks like a dandy, but he easily was.
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Date: 2013-05-19 08:10 am (UTC)River said she would see him in Trenzalor and since their timeline is backward *has hopehopehope*
OMG, this just...I still cannot brain. I am DED from FEELINGS.
Wake me in November *cries*
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Date: 2013-05-19 01:56 pm (UTC)So please, I don't want to talk about "what we know about the 50th anniversary special" through various media outlets, or who is in it, or who they are in British culture. I would rather be surprised, if only because I'm usually a ragingly impatient spoiler whore and it's a refreshing change of pace. The most jaw-dropping moment I had in the series was the end of "Utopia" which I knew NOTHING about. And this time around, announced by the BBC or no, I didn't know anything about John Hurt being in this or the anniversary special at all and I think it made it better for me.
I wrote a liveblog of watching some of those Six epsidoes (The mysterious planet & Timelash). I thought Timelash was WAY better than The Ultimate Foe. Actually I thought it had a really well done villain too, and Six got some great lines. And the plot kind of sort of hold up; it's the execution of it that was cheesy. I didn't like The Two Doctors very much though. It was just too weird. The whole, "Two turns into a cannibal with giant eyebrows" thing kinda was like, "bzuh?". VoV was good.
I really like Colin Baker's Big Finish stuff. And I think Sixy got short shrift in the series.
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Date: 2013-05-19 02:12 pm (UTC)Yeah, I had thought about that too. I guess with reference to Journey to the Center of the TARDIS and "The Great Time War" book and Clara going, "oh yeah, you were in there" that maybe we will learn more about the Time War in the special.
Although, I think one of my questions about that bit in Journey was answered: Clara knew it was the Doctor in the book because Clara always knows the doctor, because she's the impossible girl.
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Date: 2013-05-19 02:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-19 11:30 pm (UTC)Yeah I didn't know about that either....
I liked the idea that it's not the souffle, it's the recipe.
That was cool. "I guess I'll be souffle girl after all!"
Do you think that John Hurt's character might be related to the Valeyard somehow?
even as she decays like a red giant.
Ooh, that's cool, I didn't think about it being like the death of a star.
ETA:
I just... The TARDIS and the Doctor: it breaks my heart to see the end of them
Right, how depressingly Doctor/TARDIS OTP was that? They don't even get buried together, she IS his grave. D:
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Date: 2013-05-19 11:39 pm (UTC)Yeah, the star was the first thing I thought of. I have a thought in my head about the TARDIS and the Doctor in these episodes. To face his ending like that, to come face to face not only with his end but the death of his most constant companion, it had to be a dagger to the hearts.
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Date: 2013-05-19 11:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-20 12:33 am (UTC)I liked it a lot too. For the characterization, for the setting, I even liked how they put together teh Clara mystery because that was bugging and I was getting skeptical how it would be resolved.
I also geeked over how they put together the classic Doctors in the ep...and I didn't even watch Classic Who or know anything about the context of Clara's actions--well except for the TARDIS stealing. :-)
Okay, you can answer this for me. WTF is the Valeyard?! I saw some other people talking about it.
Also, thank goodness Jenny didn't die. I would've been very annoyed (or Strax...or Vastra I love this Victorian trio!)
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Date: 2013-05-20 12:42 am (UTC)The Valeyard is a character who appears in the Sixth Doctor series of stories "The Mysterious Planet", "Mindwarp", "Terror of the Vervoids" and "The Ultimate Foe." Together they made up a whole series of Who (forget which one) that was collectively called the "Trial of a Time Lord". In it, the Doctor is plucked out of time by the Time Lords and put on trial for genocide and interefering with lower life forms or something like that. His accusor and prosecutor is this person called "The Valeyard" (played by Michael Jayston) who obviously has it out for the Doctor in a big way. It turns out, we later learn, that the Valeyard is an amalgamation of all of the dark aspects of the Doctor, and he is trying to steal the Doctor's remaining regenerations for himself. See eg, this page. Back in series five, people were also wondering if the Dream Lord was the Valeyard too.
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Date: 2013-05-20 12:54 am (UTC)Actually, I had a basic plot question you just reminded me of because I ignored it because OMGWTFAWESOMESAUCE. Why would the Doctor have a tomb? There was such a fuss about him being burnt up (and Ten did it to the Master too--of course we know how well that took, they multiplied!) Would there still be a remnant?
Oh! I know the Dream Lord... and eep the Valeyard. Talk about a serious split personality disorder.
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Date: 2013-05-20 01:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-20 01:49 am (UTC)There were so many metaphors, and thematic things about friendship and choice and what makes us who we are and ahh... it was very pretty visually too. Just great.
And the poor TARDIS, trying to protect her Doctor until the bitter end.
I've got about twenty different theories about who John Hurt might end up being, and I'm sure that the speculation over the summer is going to be epic.
Also, I've decided that REG!Nine is real and he is the result of the Great Intelligence running amok through the Doctor's time lines and then trying (without knowing why or who he is) to make amends.
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Date: 2013-05-20 04:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-20 04:27 am (UTC)This is a bit brilliant, you know :)
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Date: 2013-05-20 04:55 am (UTC)I'm guessing that the River we saw was a post-Library River, but it's almost impossible to tell how long she's actually be dead? Cause she wasn't dead in Angels (well, she'd be dead later in a chronological point in time) but she wasn't dead in her timeline yet, I think. But I'm not sure how they managed to pull her into the conference call since that version was would've been post-Library, and she was stuck in a computer database?
I'm not sure what to make of John Hurt. I had thought he was the Valeyard, but the Valeyard is supposed to be between 12 and 13, and assuming that all of the faces that were there were past regnerations, it'd have to be one that had already happened? But the way that Eleven describes him (the only one who betrayed the name) implies that he'd have to at least come after he took the name of the Doctor? But I'm not sure how that'd be his greatest secret cause uh the Time War was pretty bad. But I suppose it's the only point in the Doctor's history that might match up quite to betraying the name of the Doctor, but that'd mean that it was never Nine who ended it to start with? Or would it have been something he did during the Time War?
I'm hoping it wraps itself up by the 50th, but I don't have too many hopes knowing Moffat.
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Date: 2013-05-20 02:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-20 02:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-20 10:39 pm (UTC)Le sigh. Poor Doctor. Poor TARDIS.
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Date: 2013-05-20 10:45 pm (UTC)I thought since they're pulling consciousnesses into the conference call, and basically all River IS post-Library is a consciousness, they could include her after death. (Letter to Clara aside, maybe Vastra only put out the call to River like the Doctor gets notes on his psychic paper and didn't know "when" in River's timeline they'd get in touch)
Also, did Nine end the Time War for certain? I got the impression it was something Eight did (and since I don't know old-Who that well, I thought it may have even been onscreen). I figured whatever happened in the Time War regenerated him and Nine was the first post-Time War Doctor. I could very well be wrong.
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Date: 2013-05-21 12:54 am (UTC)I think that the River in Library had mentioned that the last time that she had seen him was at the Singing Towers, after which she was called away to the Library and met Ten, got saved to a computer and then called up for the conference call, if I'm following the timeline correctly?
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Date: 2013-05-21 01:01 am (UTC)I'd have to rewatch some of the earlier eps a lot more closely, but I got the impression that Nine was present during the immediate aftermath of the war, but I'm not sure if it was Nine or Eight himself had been the one which ended the war? Some of the dialogue in Parting of the Ways suggested to me it was Nine who had done the deed, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly?
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Date: 2013-05-21 01:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-21 02:10 am (UTC)