More thoughts on the series finale

[eve11]

ETA It sounds like I'm being mean and ranty here but I'm really not. I liked it; I'm just conflicted. And ready to go back to something simpler.

So does this mean that the Doctor was actually a little tiny Doctor inside a big Robot Doctor for the entirety of the weird alternate timeline? Why would he get knocked out or taken prisoner or whatever else? He could have just left in his TARDIS. Unless he really really wanted to just fade away into the shadows. That's quite a commitment to a ruse, I must say. Why would the eye drive work on the robot? Why would the robot be in pain? It's a clever trick but it doesn't work... unless, UNLESS, the Doctor in the weirdo reality is not in fact the tesselecta but is only in the tesselecta in the beach. In which case he can't show River the trick in the tower. And if the tesselecta is being controlled by the mini people and not the Doctor it undermines the emotion of all of his scenes, and if iit's just being controlled by the Doctor then how does he have time to run up to the eye and wave? So it's a bit ridiculous. IDK

I did love the scene with him and Dorium's head in the TARDIS where he calls the Brig. And oh, I loved the bit with the Dalek too.

The rats line... man that whole bit was straight out of Indiana Jones and not even lightly. The skulls, goodness.

So why did the doctor call Canton Delaware? I'm sad that we didn't get to see him again.

"Run."
"I did run; running brought me here."
--saddest line of the episode. I loved that scene actually. Except for the bad CGI of River in the suit but I did love it. I think they actually sold River's heartache extremely well. "Please my love, just run." "Can't." "Time can be rewritten." "Don't you dare."

"This is a fixed point in time!"
"Fixed points can be rewritten!"
"No they can't, of course they can't! Who told you tha--"? LOL
Also I liked the dissolve effect there.

Pond. Amelia Pond. LOL!

The scene in the train is actually really fun. But it doesn't make sense if the Doctor's already a tesselecta.

"What's wrong with you?"
"I'm still alive."
--Except Amy and River are working together and River knows what's wrong and that they can't touch. Why would Amy not know?

"outside the bubble of our time the universe is turning." What? All of reality is collapsing. What? This makes no sense. Unless it's just the Earth?

I think part of the weirdness of this episode is that the sound is crap. It's like all ADR and sounds sound-stagey.

I liked a lot of the little bits of this, but it just doesn't seem to give as intriguing of a clean-up as the set-up. This appears to be a motif with Moffat. Like, wait, okay, River lies at the beginning? She recognizes the suit? But then the Doctor says she won't remember the murder here, so does River remember her childhood or not? She remembers being on the beach, kind of? And she goes to prison for killing the Doctor, despite the fact that she wasn't in control. That makes no sense. It is also a pretty selfish thing for the Doctor to basically use River to send himself into obscurity and have her do time for a murder she didn't commit. Unless, though, I suppose she's okay with that? What the heck?

AND another thing; River coming out of the Byzantium has been through both the first and second instances of herself on the beach. And she knows the Doctor isn't dead at that point. Because he told her when she was outside of time in the tower. So she doesn't remember kiling him but remembers it from her future vantage point to know it's a fixed point. But she at some point also remembers that the Doctor has escaped by being in the Tesselecta. So, was all her grief in Utah just a show? Or did she gradually remember what he had told her when they got married. Did they even really get married? Brain. Hurts.

*sighs*

So, fun, but basically it was all setup and no real payoff. Luckily, I wasn't expecting one. I am however, expecting that next year, Moffat will hopefully go back to a more contained arc. Also, I called it, but I think the motif of "Doctor Who" is really just kind of silly. I was ready for it to be over with Let's Kill Hitler. And another thing, Moffat wants to tone the Doctor down to the shadows as it were, but then frames the ultimate question of "Doctor Who" right in the middle of that? *rollseyes*

Right so stuff we don't know:

"You will tell the Doctor what he must know, and what he must never know." Still no clue.

"I have a feeling she'll come to us." Nothing. Well, kind of, i guess. Mels found Amy and Rory but not until later.

Still no real understanding of the Silence, except they are the sentinals of history or something. No understanding of how they blow people to tiny chunks and know their names and stuff.

Still no reason why the TARDIS blew up, why Amy's wedding was so important, or why River Song showed up afterward.

Still not really understanding why Kovarian decided that the best way to kill the Doctor was to put River in a suit and have her shoot him on the shores of the lake.

And wait, so if the true question is some variation of "Who is the Doctor", and it's a big secret and it's crazy enough that an entire order has sprung up to keep the question from being uttered... why does knowing the question mean that the Doctor understands why he should die?

And "at the fall of the Eleventh"... well, I suppose then that means we won't get a payoff for that until Eleven regenerates?

It's such a weird aesthetic, this story. It was fun but It feels like Moffat is running from his own creation.

Comments

[bexxa.livejournal.com]

So no Ganger!Doctor?

Ah, well.

*g*

[eve11]

Not...exactly. Ah, just go watch it, why are you reading my extremely spoilery reaction first???

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

Ganger. Tesselecta. ::handwaves::

My reaction right now is still "huh".

I think I need to watch it again.

[eve11]

Yeah, my reaction after watching it again is even more "huh"? Like, oh, wait, a whole bunch of questions I forgot weren't answered when I was having fun romping through it on the first view...

And the timey-wimey-ness.... ah it doesn't make sense. We just need a big reset button and to go have lots of cool one-shot adventures.

[bexxa.livejournal.com]

I watched - up to the point when the effing cable froze just as the Doctor was leaning in to whisper in River's ear.

I'll rewatch at midnight in hopes of catching those few moments until River and Amy are drinking in the garden.

[eve11]

OMG that is the worst timing ever! :D

[bexxa.livejournal.com]

Bad timing second only to the rain that meant that the Tigers and Yankees played the bulk of Game 1 today instead of yesterday.

Sigh.

Not that I'm bitter...

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

We just need a big reset button and to go have lots of cool one-shot adventures.

I'm with you there. This season just didn't do a whole lot for me - some enjoyable bits (esp. Rory), but overall kind of meh-sorta.

[clocketpatch]

I want fic where the Tesselecta says no and the Doctor still finds a way out of it. Because 1. it felt like cheat, 2. he totally could because he always does, 3. I'm kind of devastated that scruffy!toga Doctor wasn't real


(also, I was way too hasty in getting rid of my beardy!Eleven icon because I now find myself wanting to use it all the time...)

[eve11]

LOL am I filling your damn prompt again? This one will be way shorter...

[eve11]

PS: yes, this: 1. it felt like cheat

Arg, that's why I didn't want the ganger thing either. It just... I mean, okay, I'm not sure How he would do it, but that was Moff's job, to pull the wool over my eyes and not ruin the emotional impact of it. Part (a) of that accomplished, part (b), not so much.

[clocketpatch]

lmao, I had a feeling it was you because of course it was it ALWAYS is. Not that this displeases me because OMG your fills are awesome!

(want to direct me to any of your prompts? I feel I ought to reciprocate)

[clocketpatch]

It doubly annoyed me because if he'd managed to do it AFTER showing us the red herring Gangers and Tesselectas then it would've been just that much sweeter.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

I don't know what to say about this episode. It was abs. ridiculous in all the right ways, and also in all the wrong ones. I can't decide which wins. I think if I don't think of this as being the fulfillment of last season, I'm good. I was just really obsessed with S5...it was like, perfect to me. So I love DW being cracky, but it's never S5 again and so I get disappointed. Eleven was the first Doctor I watched entire seasons in order for, so all my expectations are filtered through S5.

[eve11]

Aw, I think I only have two right now that didn't get filled. I will send you a pm.

[kerravonsen]

Still no reason why the TARDIS blew up
Yes, THIS.
The only thing I can think of is that the Silence programmed River to do it, but that doesn't make much sense.

why Amy's wedding was so important, or why River Song showed up afterward.
I've seen one theory that River Song showed up in order to delay the Doctor, so that Amy and Rory could catch him before he left, so that they would have their wedding night on the TARDIS, so that she would be concieved.

[jenlev.livejournal.com]

Heee! Also jumped and up and down a bit with the rats line.

And hmmm.....thinking about the Robot Doctor shell made me remember the label on the Dubonet bottle....a cat sitting next to the bottle, and on that bottle is the cat sitting next to the bottle and so on into what one presumes is infinity. Perhaps The Doctor in the robot is a bit like that? I hand waved it to some degree partly because I was so delighted not to have thought of it. It was nice to be surprised, er, hopefully that makes sense?

That scene with the call to the Brigadier was beautifully done.

I'm realizing that one of the things I hand wave about the show in general is the idea of it making sense. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not, but I love reading all the reviews and thoughts. I'd like some more episodes that are thinky without being brain breaking.....although I'm not sure how much of that is possible. Perhaps they can do that on a continuum? :)

[westwindschild.livejournal.com]

My theory about how it could be pulled off was that astronaut-suited River escaped the suit, found the TARDIS (since she has a link to it) and waited in it under the surface of the water until the ones on the beach turned and walked away, then pulled him out of the burning boat into the TARDIS and found a way to regenerate him, even though all her regenerations were used up. Maybe once he was in the TARDIS, his own regeneration would kick in even though he got killed in the middle of regeneration. I liked the tesselecta, though, even if it didn't make sense.

[eve11]

I liked the tesselecta, though, even if it didn't make sense..

This seems to be a theme, the "i've no idea what just happened, but I think I liked it" theme :)

I think I just have to get used to the doctor being sneaky and clever again. I approve in some ways but then also I think that letting people think you're dead is pretty selfish. Ok he let River in on it but he should have let the ponds in on it too. And how/when did River actually remember about the robot?

[westwindschild.livejournal.com]

...but then also I think that letting people think you're dead is pretty selfish.

Well, he has made a point of telling people in the past few episodes that he is essentially very selfish. And he has demonstrated a certain insensitivity to people as individuals (even sometimes the individuals he deeply cares about) throughout all his incarnations. What bugs me is, if it had to be that the world thinks he's dead, and if he loves River so much, why would he arrange it so that there are no usable witnesses to see that she is not in control of the suit when it "kills" him. The captain of the tesselecta could testify - he was there and would have seen her begging the Doctor to run - but then he would have to reveal the trick, and Amy and Rory could be discounted as witnesses because of their relationship to River, but Canton Delaware III could have been far better utilized by having him a bit closer to the action when he brought the gasoline. Unless he wasn't certain before he was face to face with her that she was doing it unwillingly, I guess.

[eve11]

My take on that is that she goes to prison in order to complete the ruse, and she's okay with that as a sacrifice in order to protect the Doctor's secret. This at least explains why she treats prison like a vacation and the Doctor just steals her away from it in the night :D

"Her nights, well, that's between me and her..." LOL, Moff, you are such a tease.

[westwindschild.livejournal.com]

Well, given his distinct lack of respect for archaeologists, I guess nearly a lifetime's waste of her professional training doesn't bother him so much (again, selfish), but I don't see why - apart from that it served the story - his "murder" couldn't have been contrived in a way that would show she was acting under duress.

But that doesn't take away from the fact I really like the episode, and am largely satisfied with the outcome.

[eve11]

Oh, he's just teasing her about the archeology thing. He knows they do their best with what they have, but when you have a time machine, I imagine you can just roll your eyes. And I bet he uses archeology-like skills on planets and stuff where he doesn't have immediate access to history. Anyway, I think it's companionable flirting between them and not a true sign of lack of respect.

[eve11]

I definitely did not put together the idea of the Doctor in the tesselecta. It is pretty smart way to get out of the "you have to be there, and people have to watch you die" vein. It just seems like a bit of a cheat! I was hoping that there was some true reasoning behind the decisions that got him to that beach, and not just a crazy trap set timey-wimey-ly by Kovarian's bunch. ETA: back when episode 1 aired, I mentioned that the mystery to me was never going to be "how does he get out of this one?" but always, "How did he get into this one?" And while the first one was answered pretty handily in this episode, the second one wasn't; it's still a juggling ball thrown in the air, along with a bunch of other juggling balls and some knives and possibly flaming torches.

I did like the idea of inevitability here. They did a good job of truly setting up the fixed point there, where River tells him to run and he says, "Did run; running brought me here." But then instead of answering questions we get River changing a fixed point and honestly when you think about it all of the crazy aborted timeline bit is superfluous to the actual story, except to sell the idea that River would rather tear apart time and space than kill the man she loves.

You know, while I'm at it, I'm thinking that it's easier to conceive of the idea that it's not his friends he's fooling, but his enemies, with the Tesselecta switcheroo. It's not that he needs to dissolve away into the shadows because he gets too intertwined with peoples' lives (though that's a part of it) but because he needs the soldiers from Demon's Run to think they actually succeeded. And so it's him and River against the world, trying to figure out how to avoid the fields of Tranzalore. I... now I want to see this.

Also while I'm at it, How, HOW did I not call the idea that the eyepatches were memory drives related to remembering the Silence? I am the thickest viewer ever.

[eve11]

I still love Eleven to bits. But let's see him branch out a bit now. Time to give the Ponds a rest and pick up--IDK, jenny? Either Jenny, his daughter or Jenny and Madam Vastra--somebody at any rate, and see what happens.

[westwindschild.livejournal.com]

Well, by this point, yes it is just flirting, but in Silence in the Library it definitely wasn't. I love the way Eleven and River interact - just want to smoosh them in a great big hug sometimes, they're so cute together.

[jenlev.livejournal.com]

Ah, I like that....he gets into so much and it makes me wish there was more time in an episode to explore that.

And now you've made me thinky about RIver and time. It's as if she's a bit like the TARDIS made human and flawed, unable to let go even though she knows she has to or should. Or a bit unable to swerve from a decision even when she can.

And ooh yes indeed to the fact that he and River are plotting/planning very far ahead on this one. Gah, why do we have to wait so long to see what happens next!?

You are not thick at all...the general evil of the one(s) originally seen wearing the patches distracted us from the patches themselves. :)