For the record...

[eve11]

I liked it. It wasn't quite what I expected but it was fun and entertaining. I liked the guest cast. I liked the Amy and Rory show. I called the River reveal way early. I thought Matt Smith was excellent as always.

I don't think that the episode quite pulled off what it intended, but I did see hints of it. In particular the "rise higher, fall further" bit: ah, even with the poetic voiceover, that didn't really work for me. This is a man who's killed his entire civilization before, and participated in some of the universe's greatest moments as well; so winning one bloodless battle in order to discover it's a trap... well, maybe the full scope of what happened will be revealed later.

Okay, so on to River. I love the little sly look she gives the Doctor at the end, and of course it was not really a surprise but I thought the Melody Pond == River Song bit was done well. It was particularly cool how, the way it was sewn on the leaf, you didn't know which side was which, hence the switch of "Melody Pond" to "Song River" to "River Song". But it makes me wonder a lot of things.

I wonder if the way River kills the Doctor (if it is indeed the Doctor) has more to do with the choices he needs to make in order to rescue her. This story is still being told backwards, and so here we have an army of clerics who are fighting an evil they know as the Doctor, and the Doctor in true timey-wimey fashion, starting down a dark path because he's fighting an army he doesn't understand. River is the crux of this; some kind of weapon made to take him down (and part Time Lord to boot). So the fact of her existence brings about the Doctor's downfall from a good man to a terrible one, and leads to the choices that lead to the beach in Arizona.

Where in River's timeline was she when she showed up at the end of that episode? She was wearing the dress from Day of the Moon, but in Day of the Moon she said their lives were going back to front (which I suppose I should just throw away now). So we know River is Melody (or at least we think we do), but we still don't know who she is, who the Silence are and how they fit in, who she kills or why she is in prison. OR what happened to her as a child that she wouldn't remember the events of the warehouse. Or why she was clutching her stomach when she saw the Silence.

Man, I'm still wondering if the Silence aren't shades of a timeline that should be but isn't. And they need a Time Lord to... well to do something about getting their correct timeline reinstated.

So anyway, seems I was right about River being a weapon, and about the little girl being some kind of Time Lord experiment. Am wondering though... perhaps there is still the possibility that River is not the little girl in the warehouse. If River is that little girl's mom, well then, that might also work. Even possibly without the actual need for Time Lord and Time Lord/Human experimental whatever hanky panky. I don't know.

Also I will be sad if Amy and Rory have to basically give Melody up to the horrible history of her past--living in space suits and creepy orphanages and stuff. :( Also also, I think there is still something the Doctor knows that nobody else does. The way he deflects when the Ponds ask him about Melody; the way he knows it's too late somehow to save baby River (unless that was just the 'don't go back on your timeline' thing), well anyway, I think he is still being tricksy.

When this series is over I'm going to have to watch it all again, but back to front I think, so as to get the story in some semblance of order. :)

Part of me is glad that the cliffhanger wasn't nail-bitingly intense. That way I can put this series behind me and not obsess over it all summer. Oh also, ha, there are few repercussions on the fanfic stories I want to write. :D Part of me is like, "Oh yay! Canon is now over for a while and will not impinge on fic universes!" So. Yes, entertained. Ha.


A few nitpicks:

- Colonel Manton and the weird headless monks. You can't inspire fear or awe in the masses by calling a bunch of creepifying monks "these guys". Possibly they were going for futuristic adaptations of language but boy did it fall flat!

- Did I mention the monks? Are their heads driving their bodies somehow? Honestly, how does that work?

- Stevie Wonder sang for River in 1816 but you must never tell him? Are they taking advantage of blind people now? What?


Much longer list of things I liked:

- The thin fat gay anglican married marines. Wish we could've seen more of them.

- Ditto for the lesbian cross-species crime fighting couple. Props to others who pointed out the gratuitous use of the giant tongue right after the line "I don't know why you put up with me." LOL

- The entire scene between Lady Vastra and the Doctor. LOVED IT TO DEATH, best scene in the episode I think. "That's all humany, private stuff, they don't put up a balloon or anything!" And the way he rambles and rambles and ends up with "So technically, the first time they were together in the TARDIS in this reality was on their w..." Hahahaha! I lol-ed so hard.

- The Pirates are back!

- Melody was a ridiculously cute baby.

- Lorna Bucket. Here is what I want to happen. In a very, very cracky AU, River Song is not in fact Melody Pond. River Song lied. In fact River Song is the Doctor, (or an aspect of him) and she lied. And Melody Pond is Lorna Bucket, who was raised quietly in the Gamma forests by a loving family. And thirty seconds after the Doctor leaves in the TARDIS to go do whatever he needs to do, Lorna regenerates and becomes the new companion for series 7. It could still happen, right?

- And on the subject of "The Doctor Lies", well, I think he's lying about the cot being his. No idea why but just the way he said it, seems fishy.

- Cyberships exploding. Was awesome.

- The Doctor talks baby. The baby disses his bow tie. Oh and ha! That is the reason for the sniffing too; he's talking to the baby. How do I not get this stuff until like the third view?

- The Doctor gets angry; I liked that a lot, actually. The name is important.

- The Sontaran nurse, who was cursed by the Doctor with the worst thing imagineable, to heal the sick and wounded. And who discovers after long enough (he's nearly twelve) that at some point along the way, he became the curse whole-heartedly.

- Madam Kovarian. HBIC. Who the hell is she?

- ETA: On rewatch those last scenes get sadder and sadder. The part where he says, "They're always brave", oh my heart.

So then, next time, it's off to kill Hitler. Well, that certainly would bolster the theory of two branching timelines and two Doctors needing to reconcile everything on the beach.

Comments

[jenlev.livejournal.com]

AH, these are good thinky thoughts. And I'm not sure how I'll wait until August, I want more now. Rory was fabulous....I'm therefore worried about him. I'm guessing that young River kills the 'flesh' doctor? But I'm not good at guessing for this show.....I just read all the spoilers I can get my hands on. *veg*

Loved The Doctor talking baby and how his anger was portrayed. Oh, felt so awful for the gay couple who didn't have a chance, although like many I now want a show just about the crime fighting duo. Lots of awesome guests and moments, despite my nervousness about where this is all going (I really do like happy endings) I'm enjoying it.

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

Stevie Wonder sang for River in 1816

Well, anachronisms, and all that...just like River's dress, which has tons too much fabric for close-fitting slip-dress 1816 (Napoleonic era) and is 1875-ish bustley instead. Aaargh! /costuming rant

[eve11]

haha costuming rants are like me and math rants I think :D

And it's not the anachronism that bothered me it was more the notion that they took Stevie Wonder to 1816 but didn't tell him! What?

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

Interesting thoughts, to which I find I have little to add, what with still not knowing what to make of the whole thing.

But whatever my mixed feelings about the episode, the fact that it ended with "The Doctor will return... In LET'S KILL HITLER" had me LOLing like crazy. :)

[auntiemeesh.livejournal.com]

In particular the "rise higher, fall further" bit: ah, even with the poetic voiceover, that didn't really work for me.

Yeah, that didn't really work for me, either. I suppose working with so many representatives of his enemies could be seen as 'rising high' but the fall is very unconvincing. I still think that Ten's near descent into madness in The Waters of Mars is a much bigger fall.

The thin fat gay anglican married marines. Wish we could've seen more of them.

I liked them too, but felt like they were introduced and then killed off (at least the fat one) to very little purpose. Vastra and Jenny were handled much better, I thought. Their presence has a much greater purpose, plotwise and their adorable couple-banter just makes them seem a bit more real - gives an explanation for why Jenny came along. The fat one and the thin one were just there to allow the line, "We're the thin fat gay married Anglican marines."

And on the subject of "The Doctor Lies", well, I think he's lying about the cot being his. No idea why but just the way he said it, seems fishy.

The Doctor has been very reluctant to talk about his past. I know there was another episode where someone asked him if he had any children and he got very quiet and changed the subject, but I can't remember which one. So I'm assuming this cot was his child's but he doesn't like to be reminded of that time, so he evades the question when he can and lies when he can't.

So, anyway, yeah, I agree that the big 'dun dun DUHHHHH!' moments fell a little flat but I loved the episode, too.

[eve11]

I think it was in The Beast Below. He sees the little girl crying, and he says, "If she's crying silently it's because she just can't stop. Any parent would know that." And Amy says, "Are you a parent?" And he deflects, I believe.

[auntiemeesh.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I was skimming through The Beast Below trying to find that moment and missed it by starting my skim just after it.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

All the things I was hoping wouldn't happen, did. But I still liked it. I'm disappointed, but it was an enjoyable episode--very cinematic. I'd like to watch it again and see how I feel.

Loved the secondary characters. The Victorian lady-detective and her sidekick were great, although it was a little squicky for me that the girl was basically her girlfriend AND her servant. I liked Lorna a lot! I wanted her to be a companion.

Agreed on the "these guys" and the Stevie Wonder thing. I mean, the Stevie Wonder thing was really funny to me and awful at the same time. It seems pretty insensitive, especially for a show that tries to project "Everyone is important and special."

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

I know. Not very nice, were they?

[eve11]

I know! That really bugged me, made me a little bit cross. But ah well. For the most part I did enjoy the episode so I will forgive it some quibbles.

[eve11]

Maybe the servant bit was a cover or something.

And yeah those two bits really didn't work for me at all. Still as you say, it was a good ep. Actually, I find myself getting more emotional over the end (the bits right before River shows up) on rewatch. Especially Lorna's death; that was just like a kick to the stomach or something :(

And it's hard not to like the episode that has that exchange between the Doctor and Vastra, that was . . . I'm gonna be rewatching that just for Smith's reactions; too funny.

[ladymercury-10.livejournal.com]

Yeah, he and Vastra were a lot of fun together. It'd be neat if she got an episode that explained how he knew her. For that matter, since everything is timey-wimey, it'd be cool if Lorna got an episode, too.

[clocketpatch]

I missed the Stevie Wonder bit and I'm now sort of cocking my head to the side going whaaa?!!

As for the rest of the episode... I didn't mind it as much as I thought I would. The guest cast was fun. But the pacing throughout the whole thing was waaayyy off. It felt like there were huge chunks missing and I don't know if that's because of poor editing, or doing too much at once, or if it's intentional, or what. I would've liked to have seen Rory's immediate reaction to having his wife liquefied in front of him for one. For two, it would've been nice to have some explanation as to why the Doctor did that after spending a whole episode explaining the gangers as real people. Yeah...

I loved both of the same sex couples. But the thin and fat guy seemed to just be there to say a line and the awesome Madame Varda and the Maid (and there had better be spin-off fic about them and their awesomeness). I don't know. There was just something about the way they were presented that made me slightly, I don't know even. But that was the whole episode really. Great characters coming in to say lines, but not to actually be great characters. And the established characters all acting... off... Yeah. my reaction. It hasn't settled yet.

[rabswom.livejournal.com]

We loved it. I cried a lot.

Kim has some theories about what's going on, but I can't remember them. She wanted me to post them here and see what you thought -- I'll have to check with her in the morning.

[roboticduck.livejournal.com]

the way it was sewn on the leaf, you didn't know which side was which, hence the switch of "Melody Pond" to "Song River" to "River Song"
I liked this a lot too, though it also made me think of how in some Asian cultures the last/family name comes before the first/given name.

River is the crux of this; some kind of weapon made to take him down
Some things are definitely fitting in with this pattern, when they say the baby is to be a weapon to take down the Doctor and River saying she killed the best man she has ever known, etc, but then (as you say) why wouldn't she remember being a child raised in the orphanage, or even later that regeneration (that may not be a true regeneration?!) I'd like to think it's an indirect way for River to kiil the Doctor, but how would that make her go to prison? Thoughts and thoughts!!

lesbian cross-species crime fighting couple
<3 <3 <3

Oh, Lorna Bucket ;____; I am really hoping we see some of her backstory, because she was heart breaking.

I really need a rewatch.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

Why should they have to tell him? She clearly likes the artist, and if they'd asked someone else then there would have been a whole thing about blindfolding or something - so as not to give it away, blah blah blah - so they go with an artist the writers like who also happens to be blind. I don't see how that's exploitive or not nice.

[eve11]

It rubbed me the wrong way I guess. I suppose you could do the same thing to a singer who wasn't blind; take them somewhere in the TARDIS without them knowing what is going on and eg, having them sing for somebody in the 1700s without knowing it. It just seems weird. And easier to be sneaky if someone has to figure out the TARDIS and time travel by ear. If they're blindfolded then at least they know that someone's being sneaky?

Maybe I misunderstood what was going on.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

You're assuming, that because he's blind - and it offended you - they didn't bother to ask.

[eve11]

I wasn't all indignant or anything. I'm not generally one who sees -isms at every turn, and am happy to examine my gut reaction in more detail but the above was my gut reaction: it was a "huh?" moment exacerbated yes by the presence of a disability. I was confused because it seemed out of character.

So, counterfactually, how would I have reacted to the line "Lady Gaga sang for me under a bridge in 1816, but you must never tell her"? Under what context does that make sense? The story has to get quite convoluted.

So, if it wasn't somebody blind I think in context I would assume what? Does it have to do with a timeline, eg it's in her future so she can't know now? Is it that they can't tell her she was in 1816? Is it that they said, can you come sing for my friend? and then whisked her away... in which case why the secrecy? It's hard to judge after the fact what I would have thought.

I didn't think that they somehow kidnapped mr. Wonder, to be clear. I'm sure they asked for a concert of some kind before he agreed to it? So, okay, weird dynamic whether blind or sighted?

ETA perhaps my confusion and misunderstanding comes fom a lack of experience with how usual or unusual it is for an artist to accept a music gig that starts out: we want you to sing for us in an undisclosed location...? Ps sry I am typing this all out on a phone so it is rambly and not well edited...

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

i just had no issue with it because of who the Doctor and River are as people; the general respect they have for people as a default behavior. they would have graciously asked, and been willing to accept no for an answer, because - as I perceive the characters, of course - that's just who they are. they're kind to people, they care about people. disabilities, other abilities, no abilities, none of that matters to them.

they couldn't have used [insert singer name here] because it wouldn't have been the joke. it wasn't about making fun of a blind man, it was about making sure Rory didn't accidentally ever give the location away, precisely because Wonder is blind.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

lol to your p.s. there's no rambly at all.

and i should think - and again, it's only my personal perception of the Doctor as a character - that he would be honest and say exactly that, i'm planning a surprise, but there's a catch, so are you game? and if Wonder said no, the Doctor would be on his way.

[eve11]

OH! Okay I get it now. Yeah, I misunderstood that, then. So either they would've been eg really embarrassed that it was in such a chintzy place, or somehow it's some kind of information that he shouldn't otherwise have.... aha, yes. To me that was... not clear ;)

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

Lots of folks I've seen had your reaction, to one degree or another, so the show probably took a knowing risk there.